I am anti-imperialist, Tariq Ali

Tariq Ali was in Stockholm for the promotion of his book ‘The Duel’ (Swedish edition). In an interview with Viewpoint’s Farooq Sulehria, Tariq Ali discusses his fictional works, particularly his Islam quintet. ‘Night of the Golden Butterfly’, last volume of the quintet, is just out and drawing praise.

In ‘The Book of Saladin’, a quote by Caliph Ali about Prophet Muhammad is indeed provocative. Similarly, ‘Clash of Fundamentalisms’ not merely begins in a sensational way, one finds there ‘Satanic Verses’ too. But why there is no fatwa against you when Salman Rushdie, Irshad Manji and Hirsi Ali are grilled for saying almost the same things?

Tariq Ali: It is because I contextualise what I say. The point you mention from ‘Book of Saladin’, comes up during a debate, between Saladin and a Frank visiting him if I remember correctly, on Islam’s point of view on sexuality. People like Ayan Hirsi Ali and Irshad Manji cater to a need of Islamophobia in the West. This Islamophobia has been used as a tool against immigrant communities in Europe. Ayaan Hirsi Ali wrote a book on female circumcision and it became a best seller. Every publisher wanted to publish it. In this book, she depicted this problem as if it afflicts the entire Muslim world whereas it is Africa-specific. Also, it is not Muslim-specific. However, Hirsi Ali was eulogized and a French politician compared her with Voltaire. These people are anti-Islam as it is a career for them. I do not want to be bracketed with them. I am anti-imperialist, not anti-Islam. I belong to the tradition in Muslim world upheld by al-Ma’arri, a great Arabic-language poet from Aleppo, Syria. He challenged orthodoxy, lived a long life and died in Aleppo.

In your Islam Quintet, one frequently comes across gays and lesbians. In ‘Book of Saladin’, one of the Sultan’s brothers is gay. Women in the Sultan’s harem are lesbians. In ‘Stone Woman’, a great uncle is gay. In ‘Shadows of Pomegranate Tree’, one even witnesses a case of incest. Was it a conscious attempt on your part to highlight this aspect of the Muslim world that often is hushed up?

Tariq Ali: When you write, you write about everything. Gays and lesbians, or cases of incest for that matter, are found in the Muslim world as elsewhere. The famous Sufi poet from Lahore (Pakistan), Madhu Lal Hussain was gay for instance. I remember at the Istanbul Book Fair, I was warned in advance by my publisher that some Islamist intellectuals were also present and questions might be posed about gays and lesbians in the Islam Quintet. However, only one youth posed a question. He wanted to know if I had any proof that two of Saladin’s wives were lesbians. I replied, well if there are over hundred and fifty women in harem to share just one man, it is very obvious that some might fall in love with each other. Also, there are women who love the same sex. This happens in the Muslim world too.

In the Islam Quintet, the plots revolve around elite families. The working class people appear either as loyal house maids or wise servants while in ‘Fear of Mirrors’ or ‘Redemption’, one comes across working-class or middle-class characters. Why couldn’t the Islam Quintet find working class protagonists?

Tariq Ali: What you are talking about is socialist realism. This is essentially a Stalinist idea. Remember, the Marxist leaders always greatly admired literary classics. Look, when you write, you do not write according to set formulas or fixed schemes. The Islam Quintet is about history. The elite was playing the role of leadership in this historical process. The Muslim elite was fighting in this case. It was not possible to avoid writing about elite. However, in ‘Night of the Butterfly’, the concluding part of the Islam Quintet, which has recently came out, the protagonist is a painter who is jailed for his struggle. This novel, partly, depicts Muslim rebellion in Chinese province of Yunan. Dù Wénxiù, led this rebellion in the nineteenth century and ruled the region from his capital Dali for almost a decade. Few people are aware of this rebellion.

In the Islam Quintet, one finds Jews and Muslims living relatively at peace. This picture is in stark contradiction with reality today in Middle East. How do you reconcile the two?

Tariq Ali: Well, it was not a perfect world. But it is true that Jews were living a better life in the Muslim world than Catholic Europe. True, they were discriminated in the Muslim world too. However, in Catholicism, there was an inbuilt anti-Semitism. As a matter of fact, anti-Semitism was an essential tenet of Catholicism. Myths that Jews killed the Christ or they drank the blood of Christian children were rife. For Muslims, both Jews and Christians are Ahl-e-Kitab, people of the Book. Saladin was surrounded by Jewish advisors. In fact, there was a Judeo-Islamic civilization. The Judeo-Christian civilization was born in 1948. It did not exist for many preceding centuries. This is indeed an ideological tool. Once at a talk in the USA about my fictional work, I was asked if it was possible to have Al-Andulus today. I said it was possible in Israel only. But the Israeli leadership did not want it. What, in fact, has happened instead is that Palestinians have become indirect victims of the Holocaust. However, I think young people in the Muslim world need to look into the past.

In your non-fictional works, one comes across socially engaged poets and writers all across the Muslim world. In Pakistan, one finds Manto and Faiz. In Arab world, Nazar Qabani and Muneef. From Turkey you introduce Yasher Kamal and one meets Toer from Indonesia. In the contemporary West, such men of letters are almost missing. Even Pilger recently mourned that people like Pinter are hard to find these days in West. Your comments?

Tariq Ali: Writers have a historical role. In the French revolution, for instance, we are aware of the role played by Voltaire. During the 17th century English revolution, we see three poets, including Milton, serving in Cromwell’s foreign department. In the Russian revolution, the role of, for instance, Mayakovsky, deserves a mention. Until the 1960s, we had socially engaged writers. For instance, Sartre and Russell played an active role during the Vietnam Days. I think globalisation has provincialised the West. Also, celebrity culture is dominant here. Here in the West, we do not have public intellectuals today. The intellectuals today are associated with different institutions. They are not ready to challenge the state. In Muslim world, the poets came out of a tradition of story-telling. The Sufis for instance used to tell stories or compose poetry in a mystical though populist style. Literacy, or lack of it in fact, played a role. Thousands would gather at Mushairas, public poetry recitations, to listen to poets. This was part of the culture. Even when I was growing up in Lahore, there used to be only radio. We had no TV or internet. Hence, we would go to poetry recitations listening to poets at night-long Mushairas. This helped build a relationship in the Muslim world between writers and masses.

What should a Tariq Ali reader wait for in the near future?

Tariq Ali: The Islam Quintet is now complete. I will not write fiction about the Muslim world anymore. I have done my duty. This Islam Quintet is like a message in a bottle floating in the sea. It will keep propping up. It is up to the reader who picks it up. I am presently working on a book about Obama syndrome. It is likely to come out by the end of this year. By mid next year, my book on empires and imperialism will come out, which discusses the 21st century perspectives.